Of course, that is not what we are debating today. So thats all up there as well. Can a person with a human nature die even if they are free from sin? But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. I mean, to quote Jimmy Akin, when he was asked, Did all the early church fathers agree? He says, Boy, did they not all agree? So there was a lot that the early church disagreed on and there was things that they agreed on, things that Trent would agree on and theres things that they agreed on that I would actually believe in. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. All right. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Yeah, sounds good. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. Because they have the same father but different mothers. It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. See Genesis 35:23, Deuteronomy 21:15, Joshua 6:26, 1 Chronicles 3:1, and Hebrews 11:28, where firstborn is also used this way. After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. Adelphos is not my issue. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. Okay. . As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. Email steve.christie@mrcaustralia.com.au. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Born All right. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Okay, I get that. Ive crowned myself king, and I demand it. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. It would always demand that. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. Those are both problematic. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. Thanks for the super chat. Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. Im really enjoying this. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Some rabbis opposed the scriptural status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and Ezekiel. Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? Mary had this early body. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. Trace and Steve both share their thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin and Wyoming's friendly Blockchain laws. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. Itll change your life, no doubt. So I agree with that. They also allude to events and stories contained in these texts. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. They would be sons from another marriage. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. The son of Jonah? So then it isnt literally saying every single human has sinned or every man has sinned. All right. Peels notes in his study of the passage, Jesus is not marking beginning and end points in time but rather is contrasting Abels secret death in the wilderness with Zechariahs public death in the Temple. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. That rather, theres nothing in there to preclude people being assumed body and soul into heaven, including Mary. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. May 31, 2022. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. So for example, if a Protestant listens to todays debate and agrees with Trent and Calvin and Luther that Mary didnt have children, could he still, in your view, be a good Protestant Christian? So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. It is not considered inspired. . And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. He mentioned about the Septuagint. He had cancer and heart disease. steve.christie@phmloans.com. Okay. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. 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