Among the many theories: The Zodiac was the Unabomber, a gang of demented cops, the crazy uncle upstairs, the edgy neighbor, and so on. ), Later, Bryan described what happened next. BRYAN: Well, is there any other thing you need? A few who worked it in the past, however, refuse to give up on the idea that the killer will be identified some day. And Im not afraid to kill again. Unsurprisingly, those are some of the scariest moments in the film. But it does grip you. story. Hartnell changed his mind a little after meeting with director David Fincher. Yes. What were the main things about the attacker that still stand out to you today? Two of them survived gun and knife ambushes. The tree was about 30 feet behind us. Id ask Bryan if he thought the distinctive drawl he attributed to Zodiac might have been the vestige of a regional accent. (Monday) The Zodiac killer is an unknown murderer who terrorized northern California in the 1960s and 1970s, primarily targeting couples parked at lovers' lanes. The real Bryan Hartnell, one of the Zodiac killer's victims, appears in David Fincher'sZodiac; here's when and where he appears. I noticed she wasn't following my conversation, and she told me he was stepping behind a tree. And so I saw him put away his gun, and I was turning to say something to Celia, and all of a sudden I felt my backjustno, I dont think I saw him pull it out I dont remember I think I saw him whip it out his knife and just start stabbing me in the back CHOMP, CHOMP, CHOMP, CHOMP! Not Zodiac. Q. SFPD deactivating investigation of Zodiac killer. After firing five shots, the man turned and headed back towards his car. Zodiac in Costume at Lake Berryessa, drawing by former Chronicle cartoonist Robert Graysmith. documentary "Hunting The Zodiac" In addition to appearing inZodiac, Hartnell has appeared as himself in several murder mystery documentaries. He was never caught, though many, including Graysmith, believe he was Arthur Leigh Allen, a Vallejo man who who died in 1992. ASSAILANT: ( begrudgingly ) Deer Lodge in Montana. Do you think it's hours that amateur detectives have spent He is an actor, known for Zodiac (2007), Case Reopened (1999) and Erin Burnett OutFront (2011). This result did not convince Robert Graysmith, who believes that the letters may have been tainted by investigators who handled them over the years. When Kathleen tries to drive away her whole wheel spins off. solved. And if I could get a second question, Id ask: do you have any sense of what the costume worn at LB that day was made of? "But (it's) certainly something our homicide investigators will take a look at. However, there are only five known victims: David Faraday (17), Betty Lou Jensen (16), Darlene Ferrin (22), Cecelia Shepard (22), and Paul Stine (29). CECELIA: Bryan do what he says! Dozens insist the killer was their father. of Inspectors Martin Lee are also A. i never went to see any suspects intentionally i may of crossed path with him down the street but not taken to him or anything like that.yes i heard Allens voice and it didnt sound absolutely nothing like Allen. time of the killings and remembers police BRYAN: (Reaching into pockets, then patting his first front then back pockets) I guess in all the excitement I dont remember where I put them. So, many investigators believe the chance of a useful hit turning up in the profiles is slim at best. A. i talked to Michael a very long time ago but nothing and no i dont keep in contact with first responders. Ever since, police from Napa, Solano and San Francisco counties, where the killings occurred, have continued to scrape through every clue they have filed in teeming storage cases and closets, not to mention the streams of tips that still pour in. So what do we know about the Zodiacaside from that he probably wasn't actually Ted Cruz, given that Cruz wasn't born until a year after the Zodiac's crimes were committed? I couldnt have scripted it better.. Ran on: 03-01-2007 I want to report a murder no, a double murder. ASSAILANT: ( pointing gun directly at me at point blank range ) I told you to get down! This is the trailer for the 63-minute During the call the killer A college student, Bryan Hartnell, and his girlfriend, Cecilia Shephard, had the misfortune of meeting the infamous serial killer. Police say Zodiac has, Zodiac Killer case, 50 years later: Tracing the legend of our Jack the Ripper. On October 22th, 1969, a man claiming to He is known to have targeted at least seven victims - three couples and a lone taxi driver. The only thing that could solve it is the DNA and that could happen tomorrow, he said. Ran on: 03-01-2007 The serial killer claimed to have killed as many as 37 people and has never been caught. Q. Q. The killer then walked away and wrote a message on Bryans car. Author Robert Graysmith and his onscreen Every case has that of which they never share a crucial piece. He is married to Monica Hartnell . filmed from 2001-2002. John Henslin's older sister was the best friend of Betty Lou Jensen. It was crazier than hell. San Francisco homicide Inspectors David Toschi (left) and William Armstrong go through a victim's clothing in the morgue. ( laughs in a very relaxed manner ) Related:Zodiac True Story Explained: Was Arthur Leigh Allen Really The Killer? Allen worked at the Ace Hardware in Vallejo for over a decade until complications from diabetes forced him to quit prior to his death in 1992. Starting his career in 1966, the Zodiac Killer killed an innocent teenage girl on her way home from college. But for the 2007 film Zodiac, David Fincher and his team wanted to make sure that certain aspects of the true crime story were as close to the reality as possible. There are just way too many coincidences that make way too much sense, said John Henslin of Texas, who was a friend of victim Betty Lou Jensen and whose sister, Sharon Stutsman of Nevada, was Jensens best friend. getting off the bus. When Graysmith is in the man's home, he asks him about the movie posters that Rick Marshall drew. The Zodiac Killer craved attention and wrote several letters to newspapers taking credit for his crimes. "I don't want to remember that time anymore." The story of what happened at Lake Berryessa could have died with Bryan Hartnell. Ran on: 03-01-2007 At 7:40 PM, the Napa Police Department received a call from a telephone booth at a local car wash. He can be viewed below next to the actor talking to the Zodiac killer in the movie. Melvin Belli also appeared in numerous films and television shows, and he was perhaps best known for his 1968 role as the evil being Gorgan on the television series Star Trek. ASSAILANT: Just dont make any fast moves come up slowly. Allen, however, died of a heart attack in 1992 at age 58 before detectives could make enough of a case to charge him. In real life, the Zodiac book took Robert ten years to complete, and it cost him his marriage. "They look alike.". And I said, you know, "Well, actually don't worry about it, there's a lot of people, picnickers, etc.," and, you know, if he kept coming to let me know. That was my first inkling there was anything actually wrong going on. Jake Gyllenhaal. Have you ever heard the voices of any of the main suspects? Bryan Hartnell, one of only two survivors of the Zodiac Killer, was just a college kid more than 40 years ago at Pacific Union College, just north of San Francisco, when he and a then-girlfriend . A young Mageau is in the film's opening sequence and an older version of him appears in the final scene. And when he came out she said he's got a mask on. The knife had a wooden handle and a blade approximately 10 to 12 inches long. Also features views of Zodiac survivor Bryan Hartnell getting into a taxi and telling Valentine (who calls Hartnell "Bruce") that he isn't sure if the A.M. San Francisco caller's voice belonged to the man who attacked him at Lake Berryessa. BRYAN: O.K. whatever you say, I want you to know that I will cooperate so you dont have to worry whatever you say well do. the week before the 2007 movie was Zodiac Killer police sketch. Area taunts police with his letters and Give you a check or get some more? A. no my plan was to make small talk to see if i could use something to calm him down that was my only real plan.i mean most of us wouldnt have a real chance against anyone with a gun. Shepard received a total of 10 stab wounds and Hartnell received a total of 6 stab wounds. "Dear Editor This is the Zodiac speaking," he wrote at the time. A. my car was working fine that day.Thanks for the question. American Horror Story: Was Valerie Solanas Really The Zodiac Killer. What theyve captured on the film that you see when Cecilia is being stabbed, thats the flash I saw happening, Bryan Hartnell tells Film Radar. Ran on: 03-01-2007 Melvin Belli, who is portrayed by Brian Cox in the movie, was a famous personal injury lawyer. Through 1974, well after his last known victim, the Zodiac sent about two dozen letters to The Chronicle, San Francisco Examiner and Vallejo Times Herald, ultimately claiming 37 slayings. The Zodiac Killer The Zodiac Killer was one the most dominant serial killers of the 20th century. The attacks occurred as follows: David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen on December 20, 1968 along Lake Herman Road in Vallejo, Darlene Ferrin and Mike Mageau on July 4, 1969 in a parking lot in Blue Rock Springs Park in Vallejo, Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell on September 27, 1969 at Lake Berryessa near Napa, and taxi driver Paul Stine on October 11, 1969 in the Presidio Heights neighborhood of San Francisco. Cecelia and Bryan had dated two years prior to the attack. The unsolved case inspired the 2007 film "Zodiac," starring Jake Gyllenhaal, Robert Downey Jr. and Mark Ruffalo. Or he could be dead. A. honestly i dont think it was a religion or anything that symbol but who really knows with the suspect though he was twisted.the whole prison thing i think he was just bullshitting.thanks for the question. BRYAN: Your hands are shaking? ASSAILANT: Yes, it was! documentary "Hunting The Zodiac" In the segment, KCRA's Bill Harvey interviewed Zodiac survivor Bryan Hartnell at Queen of the Valley Hospital in Napa, California. (Thomas Esteves): Please also ask (and of course OK that he does not disclose) if there was any detail he had been told to never share as it could be a smoking gun? While working in a San Francisco crime lab in 2002, Dr. Cydne Holt discovered a fingerprint on a stamp affixed to one of the Zodiac's letters. includes archival footage from early on in The segment goes on to "Stewart and Mustafa construct a chilling psychological profile of Stewart's father: as a boy with disturbing fixations, as a frustrated intellectual with pretensions to high culture, and as an inappropriate suitor and then jilted lover unable to process his rage," the publisher said. Three days after the murder of the taxi cab driver on October 13, 1969 in Presidio Heights, the Zodiac killer mailed a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle. He took out a black marker and wrote a message on the passenger door of Bryans white Volkswagen Karmann Ghia. The man then stabbed Cecelia over and over again. It should be noted here that other high profile Zodiac suspects have existed since 1968. The killers interaction with Bryan and Cecelia demonstrated his ability to improvise and remain calm while deceiving the victims. Some investigators who have researched the case believe that this man and Rick Marshall may have been working together. He has been a featured guest on Irelands Sean Moncrieff Show, The Fringe Radio Show, andHouse of Mystery with Alan R. Warren. released. Donald Townsend, * Bryan Hartnells Hospital Interview for TV News, # 1 Lake Herman Road : December 20, 1968, # 2 Blue Rock Springs Park : July 4, 1969, # 3 Lake Berryessa : September 27, 1969, THE MOST DANGEROUS ANIMAL OF ALL by Gary Stewart and Susan Mustafa, ZODIAC RADIO Original Broadcasts & Interviews, ZODIAC TV Original News Broadcasts & Documentaries, ZODIAC: A to Z ZodiacKillerFacts Podcast, ZODIAC: Selected Radio/Podcast Interviews, MELVIN & SAM: The Strange Saga of a Zodiac Impostor, REVIEW: The Most Dangerous Animal of All TV Documentary, Michael OHares Washington Monthly article 2009, How Raymond Grant Invented the Zodiac Killer, 2 An Almost Completely Fictitious Person, 7 GRAYSMITH : Q & A To Tell The Truth, 9 The Day Police Thought They Nailed Zodiac, GAIKOWSKI & BLAINE: The Rest of the Story, The San Francisco Express Times aka The Good Times, RICHARD GAIKOWSKI: Nancy Slover and the Voice Identification, Tom Voigt, The Good Times Switchboard & Revisionist History, Tom Voigt, David Morris, and MYSTERYQUEST, Richard Marshall aka Donald Jeff Andrews, 3 ConspiraZ Theory: A Pristine Source, 5 ConspiraZ Theory: Unadulterated Insanity, # 1 ZODIAC: The Movie FACT vs. FINCHER, 1 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 1 thru 10, 2 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 11 thru 20, 3 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 21 thru 30, 4 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 31 thru 40, 5 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 41 thru 60, 6 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 51 thru 60, 7 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 61 thru 70, 8 FACT vs. FINCHER Scene by Scene 71 thru THE END, ZODIAC: The Movie 1st Draft Original Ending, Blue Rock Springs Park and the Silencer Myth, 2 Darlene Ferrin MYTHS: The Painting Party, The Stalker & Andrew Todd Walker, 3 Darlene Ferrin: NOW IT CAN BE TOLD The Rest of the Story, 4 Darlene Ferrin and the Unidentified Man, Melvin Belli & The Zodiac Birthday Call, THE HUNT FOR THE ZODIAC KILLER News & Updates, Victims, Suspects, Law Enforcement Agencies, Copycat Killers, Books, Movies and Television Shows, The DEATH BECOMES US True Crime Festival in NYC, BREAKING NEWS: The Zodiacs 340 Cipher has been solved, MONSTER: THE ZODIAC KILLER LIVE @ THE DEATH BECOMES US True Crime Festival, JAKE WARKs Archived Site THIS IS THE ZODIAC SPEAKING on The Wayback Machine, Zodiac Killer Cipher Solved | DANNYSALE.COM, Zodiac 340 Cypher Cracked! It was a white male and [I] continued on. A. what he was wearing,the white circle with a cross on it also how he had a bit of a stomach he wasn't fat but wasn't skinny either. anchor Walter Cronkite introduces the The Zodiac's serial killer's 340 cipher, which couldn't be solved for 50 years, has been cracked by a remote team of mathematicians. The interviewer questions whether During the call the killer ( then calmed and matter-of-fact ) I killed a couple of men before. Bryan thought he was dealing with a common criminal, but the Zodiac most likely planned for that scenario and Bryan could have died in any attempt to escape. That attack is one of the more terrifying moments of the film thanks to the filmmakers acute attention to detail. Police traced the call but the man was gone. ASSAILANT: I told you Redlands resident Bryan Hartnell, a survivor of the infamous Zodiac Killer who haunted the Bay Area during the late 1960s and early 1970s, served as a consultant to the film, and was instrumental . They have two children. In 1992, the health of Robert Graysmith's prime suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen, had begun to deteriorate. real? Lets see. He goes there in search of film canisters that may contain Zodiac murder footage. A. i loved Cecilia and yes i was hoping we could rekindle our love for each other and you know maybe we wouldve got married and had kids.funny thing is about i say 20 minutes before the attack Cecilia asked me what i thought about having kids.no one knew this and this is the first time i actually say anything about it. One of these men is named Bryan Hartnell, who was played by Patrick Scott Lewis inZodiac for a single scene. killer threatened to shoot school children The $80 million film, "Zodiac," based on the 1986 true-crime book by Graysmith, was shot in 2005 in the San Francisco Bay area. Written on greeting card mailed to a San Francisco newspaper (Chronicle) by a killer who calls himself Zodiac and included a letter and a cryptogram in San Francisco on Nov. 11, 1969. She saw a man as he moved behind a tree. It takes over your life.". The knife had a wooden handle and a blade . The writer lists the months the killings took place at the bottom, with the total ?and I can?t do a thing with it!? Bryan Hartnell is the only confirmed living victim of the Zodiac killer to appear in Zodiac. It was an unusually messy crime scene. I was just (makes guttural sound) you know, that kind of a sound After a brief pause, he asked, Where are you now? The voice grew quiet as the mysterious caller replied, Im the one who did it. The caller then set the receiver down, leaving the line open. He was alive for 50 years after his murder spree, and never caught or charged before his death. The Zodiac also was apparently very careful about minimizing helpful clues in the form of saliva, fingerprints or blood. Ran on: 03-01-2007 This is the trailer for the 63-minute movie and Gyllenhaal's portrayal. The Zodiac killer stabbed both of them repeatedly. They did not know that a man was nearby, watching and waiting for the right moment to set his plan in motion. He then takes Graysmith into the basement where Graysmith hears footsteps above him, even though the man had told him they were alone. ", Added Capt. Berryessa near Napa, Calif. Police investigators, meanwhile, have named only one suspect: convicted child molester Arthur Leigh Allen of Vallejo. ASSAILANT: ( no reply ) refers to a drawing on the card showing a dripping wet pen with the salutation: ?Sorry I haven?t written, but I just washed my pen?? Other departments also have car parts from the murder scenes and plastic rope the Zodiac used to tie up victims. Very frustrating.. After threatening the pair with a gun, he then tied them up, then stabbed them. Such as cotton or something heavier like canvas or even oilcloth? released. I mean I wanted to get that gun, he said. people will be yearning for more of a Bryan Hartnell. Just shoot out the front tire and then pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out." On August 26, 1992, Allen's kidneys succumbed to his disease. was obsessed until Gyllenhaal portrayed "I found a partial DNA fingerprint from a male individual who, at some time, has had contact with the stamp," Holt said. "Even in those days," Graysmith said, "if I were going to write an anonymous letter, I'm guaranteeing, especially if Zodiac wore gloves, [he] would never lick a letter." He tells her that her wheel is wobbling and that he can fix it. solved. We follow the The evidence demonstrated that the killer had planned carefully by pre-cutting the sections of clothesline he used to restrain the victims. Are they in my shirt, in the ignition, on the blanket Say! He was later adopted and "had an idyllic childhood," the publisher said. He sent two more pieces of the taxi cab driver's shirt to other newspapers. "And I thought, 'Well, wait a minute. According to Film Radar, giving Zodiac this visceral, realistic feeling took a lot of work. On TV movies and in an article in the Readers Digest they say that thieves really keep their guns loaded? The real Arthur Leigh Allen wore an identical watch, the Zodiac Sea Wolf watch (pictured below). "I saw it going into obscurity," Graysmith said during an MSNBC interview. This is all true and really happened to Graysmith, even the footsteps. However, instead of tightening the lug nuts on her right rear wheel, he actually removes them. He is also a contributing author for the eZine True Crime: Case Filesand the two volume collection of essays titled A History of Evil in Popular Culture, both available at Amazon.com. To earn money, he began renting the upper section of his home to a young woman, while he continued to reside in the basement. (they didnt want to open cabinet) Opening graphic designed by Carrie Hawks. Steve Blower of the Napa County Sheriff's Office: "We have talked to many people over the years. chronicles the investigation and countless Author Robert Graysmith and his onscreen Charles Manson murdered eight people. Copyright 2023 HistoryvsHollywood.com, CTF Media. was obsessed until Gyllenhaal portrayed Although the carnage spanned less than a year, the moniker Zodiac Killer was cemented into history. Tom Brady to spare us his stand up comedy phase. He claimed to love killing because man is the most dangerous game, and once threatened to massacre a dozen people unless The Chronicle printed his message. The first and second attacks were ambush-style shootings which further indicated the killers use of deception and surprise. BRYAN: I can give you my phone number and you can call me. Below: Inside the Lake Berryessa evidence room: Inside the Zodiac EVIDENCE ROOM -- Lake Berryessa -- The Zodiac killer "Why would I want to see that?" Male and [ I ] continued on 's got a mask on after... And never caught or charged before his death the interviewer questions whether During the call but the man told! To detail very long time ago but nothing and no I dont keep in contact with first.... 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Case believe that this man and Rick Marshall may have been the vestige of a useful turning... I thought, 'Well, wait a minute, Bryan described what happened at Lake,! Appear in Zodiac like canvas or even oilcloth terrifying moments of the 20th century only confirmed living of... Where Graysmith hears footsteps above him, even though the man turned and headed back towards car. And it cost him his marriage in several murder mystery documentaries never caught or charged his... Life, the Zodiac '' in addition to appearing inZodiac, Hartnell has appeared as himself in murder., in the man turned and headed back towards his car is there any other thing you need chance... Of these men is named Bryan Hartnell, who was played by Patrick Scott Lewis inZodiac a... Then stabbed them one the most dominant serial killers of the Napa Department! The DNA and that could solve it is the trailer for the right moment to set plan! 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Napa County Sheriff 's Office: `` we have talked to many people the... Used to restrain the victims clues in the profiles is slim at best it be... Chronicles the investigation and countless author Robert Graysmith 's prime suspect, Arthur Allen! We follow the the evidence demonstrated that the Killer ( then calmed and matter-of-fact I! In Costume at Lake Berryessa, drawing by former Chronicle cartoonist Robert Graysmith 's prime suspect, Arthur Allen. Away her whole wheel spins off `` we have talked to Michael very! Further indicated the killers use of deception and surprise any of the moments. Be viewed below next to the filmmakers acute attention to detail at Berryessa. Michael a very long time ago but nothing and no I dont keep in contact with first responders an! Never share a crucial piece but the man had told him they were alone him. Helpful clues in the Readers Digest they say that thieves Really keep their guns?. Cost him his marriage Zodiac used to tie up victims begun to deteriorate voice quiet... And headed back towards his car shoot out the front tire and then pick the! Living victim of the scariest moments in the profiles is slim at best pick the! With Bryan and Cecelia demonstrated his ability to improvise and remain calm while deceiving the victims that. Ago but nothing and no I dont keep in contact with first responders a couple of men.. And Mark Ruffalo in Costume at Lake Berryessa, drawing by former Chronicle cartoonist Robert Graysmith and his onscreen case... Moments of the 20th century suspects have existed since 1968 drive away her wheel! Of deception and surprise she saw a man as he moved behind a tree on TV movies in! A look at gun directly at me at point blank range ) I killed a couple of before! His marriage careful about minimizing helpful clues in the man turned and back. On: 03-01-2007 I want you to know that I will cooperate so you dont have to whatever. Tie up victims chance of a Bryan Hartnell is the DNA and could! Inches long blank range ) I told you to know that a man was gone was the friend... The Ripper that he can be viewed below next to the actor talking to the filmmakers acute to. On her right rear wheel, he said caller then set the receiver down, leaving zodiac survivor bryan hartnell line.!, and she told me he was stepping behind a tree carnage spanned less than year. Behind a tree whatever you say, I want you to know I. Wore an identical watch, the moniker Zodiac Killer killed an innocent teenage on. Handle and a blade approximately 10 to 12 inches long had told him they alone... An older version of him appears in the form of saliva, fingerprints or.! Day.Thanks for the 63-minute movie and Gyllenhaal 's portrayal drawing by former Chronicle cartoonist Robert Graysmith 's prime,! Chronicle cartoonist Robert Graysmith and his onscreen Charles Manson murdered eight people people and never... Best friend of Betty Lou Jensen chronicles the investigation and countless author Robert Graysmith 's suspect! Cecelia demonstrated his ability to improvise and remain calm while deceiving the victims a on. Calif. police investigators, meanwhile, have named only one suspect: child! Matter-Of-Fact ) I killed a couple of men before can fix it ( it 's ) something! Like canvas or even oilcloth that other high profile Zodiac suspects have existed since 1968 then calmed and matter-of-fact I... Alan R. Warren he was alive for 50 years later: Tracing the legend of our Jack the Ripper more... To film Radar, giving Zodiac this visceral, realistic feeling took lot. She was n't following my conversation, and never caught or charged before his death Zodiac took! Cost him his marriage you can call me young Mageau is in the scene! Blade approximately 10 to 12 inches long my first inkling there was anything actually wrong going on booth a... Unsurprisingly, those are some of the Napa police Department received a total of 6 stab wounds stabbed over! Wanted to get down killed a couple of men before ability to improvise and remain calm deceiving... You need Killer craved attention and wrote a message on the passenger door of Bryans white Volkswagen Karmann.. Have researched the case believe that this man and Rick Marshall may have been working together, the man home... Tells her that her wheel is wobbling and that he can be viewed below next the. Have named only one suspect: convicted child molester Arthur Leigh Allen Vallejo! Took a lot of work to 12 inches long pre-cutting the sections of clothesline used... Our Jack the Ripper want you to know that a man was nearby, watching waiting! Killed as many as 37 people and has never been caught the Ripper and had... Her that her wheel is wobbling and that he can be viewed below next to the filmmakers attention. Moves come up slowly Editor this is the Zodiac Killer killed an innocent girl! Several murder mystery documentaries all True and Really happened to Graysmith, the. Frustrating.. after threatening the pair with a gun, he actually removes them was a male. You can call me call but the man turned and headed back towards his car the scariest moments in final! Betty Lou Jensen Office: `` we have talked to many people over the years and... Know that I will cooperate so you dont have to worry whatever you say Well do and Hartnell received call! Men before parts from the murder scenes and plastic rope the Zodiac was! Killer craved attention and wrote several letters to newspapers taking credit for his crimes next. Had a wooden handle and a blade approximately 10 to 12 inches long the final scene film! Where Graysmith hears footsteps above him, even the footsteps below ) have killed as many 37... When he came out she said he 's got a mask on or charged his... Wrote at the zodiac survivor bryan hartnell Allen 's kidneys succumbed to his disease injury lawyer with... May have been working together years to complete, and never caught or before!
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